if you have 16 clients as a goal, when do you recommend bringing on the care givers. For example one care giver from 1-5, second care giver 6-12 and third caregiver 12+? not including the manager.
Bregitta,
That’s exactly how you do it. You don’t want to be paying for 3 caregivers if you only have 2 residents, grow them as you grow your residents.
Gene Guarino
Hi Gene – how much do you pay for a manager ? Do you have any thoughts regarding making a manager a partner in the operational LLC? We are talking with a couple that has run a 6 person RAL for 5 years about having them operate our home for a combination of salary and equity ( equity earn out based on performance ) .. we intend to rennovate the building to accomodate 6 people initially and use cash flow to rennovate additional square footage over time. I’m crunching the numbers as best I can on a proforma basis and it looks like only the NOI is only about 10% of the gross revenue after accounting for a business manager and CNAs and other expenses
Rich,
You’re on the right track. You can structure the managers pay multiple ways! In our live training we cover this subject in depth, I hope you can make it out to that training soon! Some of our students to pay their managers a combo of salary and equity, that’s not a bad idea and it keeps them incentivized to keep the house full and running well.
Once you graduate the course, go ahead and sign up for a discovery call with my support team they will help walk you through your pro forma and how we can be of help to you to make those numbers work!
Look forward to your success,
Gene
Daniel,
Every manager is going to have a different style and different expectations off the bat for themselves. It’s very important that you are clear with them about what you are expecting out of them and their position. If you are wanting them to just give tours and help schedule the staff that’s one thing, but if they’re also in charge of the medication management, menus, activities, outside vendors (haircuts, chefs, etc), billing, payroll, marketing, hiring/firing, keeping manuals up to date, etc. Then it’s a whole other job. You need to interview really well, that is the key. Find someone you can trust and clearly lay out what you’re expecting of them and what you yourself are responsible for. Make sure they enjoy the job duties you’re assigning and that they have full comprehension on how to do each of them. Over time you will discover what they excel at and what they need some hand holding on, but the more time you can spend training someone perfectly to suit your needs vs. having temps in and out of the house all the time, the better. You want to build a relationship with your manager and you need to really trust them, as they are the face of your business. Most of the families will never know your name or face, but they will know your manager by heart. It’s a special position, so spend good time on the hiring of this spot and the training of it as well. Invest in this person! Long answer for a short question, sorry!
Gene
As a follow on to your answer to Bregitta’s question; I assume that the house has to be covered 24 hours per day, if i have 2 residents, how do i cover all the hours with only 2 caregivers? Are the 2 working 12 hour shifts? What would happen on weekends? Please explain.
Robert,
Two Residents is tough, I hope thats just in the interim and that you are looking for more. I will address two issues here.
1. You don’t need two caregivers for just two residents at a time. One caregiver can handle at least five residents and then once you get the 6th resident you’ll want to add another caregiver for each shift.
2. Now for handling the staffing, one way you can handle this would be you’ll need four caregivers on payroll in this situation. If each one takes a 12 hour shift, some work 3 days a week and some work 4 days a week, they break for day shift vs night shift. There are other ways to get around this if your state allows night shift to be asleep. Some states do and some don’t. If they don’t you need to follow the protocol above. If they do, it may be a good option for a live-in caregiver who is in the home 24/7 and takes a break for a couple hours when manager/other staff member comes to relieve them, etc.
Also note, you shouldn’t have to handle staffing as the owner, your manager will be doing all the hiring/firing and staffing/scheduling.
Hope that helps,
Gene
Gene,
Based on previous sections, my understanding is your manager is also the administrator, holding the license for your homes. I am weighing potential benefit of obtaining my administrator license (in CO) and perhaps serve as mgr short term as I get first home up and running. But also thinking this could be beneficial if down the road a mgr leaves unexpectedly as I know a there needs to be a new administrator (license) in place right away. Thoughts?
Kathryn,
Yes our manager is also our administrator, we use those words hand in hand.
If your state doesn’t have a lot of stringent rules on getting your managers license, we highly recommend you do get it. You can hang your license on the wall and pay a caregiver to act as the house manager and pay them 1-2$ more per hour for doing that work, instead of having a full time manager/admin that you would pay a salary.
Gene
How do you handle when staff call in for work? My worry is having staff and caregivers calling out and me having no way to cover them once I have multiple houses and staff. Do you usually have staff that are call-in for this situation? Or having the 4 caregivers for six clients is enough to usually not have that issue?
Also, do you offer full-time positions or try to keep them part-time to avoid offering benefits, health insurance, and etc.?
James,
You will never have to handle any of that, your manager will. If someone calls out, they’re calling your manager to let them know and either your manager will call in another caregiver, they’ll have a list of 5-6 per house they can call OR they’ll cover the shift themselves.
Not your problem really.
Most of your caregivers will work 3 to 4 12-hour shifts per week, you are not offering benefits or health insurance.
Gene
Vincent,
Your manager/administrator will take care of that, not you.
They will set the schedule and if someone doesn’t show up, they cover the shift. You will never even know that happens because you are the owner of the business, you don’t deal with any of the day to day.
If someone is late, the caregiver before them wouldn’t leave until the next person arrives.
This is 24/7 care and they understand that and they love the residents, they would never leave them without supervision.
Gene
Gene,
I believe in a past video you mentioned that a manager could handle 2 or 3 homes. This leads me to believe that managing 1 home is not a full-time position. At the same time, you suggested that the manager is paid a salary. Is this correct? And, when a second home is opened, does their salary double or increase 1.5 times?
Thomas,
They can definitely manage more than one home usually. But that limit will be set by your state. Our manager is paid a salary, but some of our students structure it differently; a flat rate per home, a certain percentage of the business, a certain dollar amount depending on how many beds are full, etc. You can structure it however makes sense for you. We pay one salary for all three homes, so it started smaller with overseeing just one home and as we got two more, their salary increased to the full amount, but they were bought into the plan on managing 3 homes, so they knew it was going to grow and they were highly involved with the process.
Gene
so in the beginning when you can’t afford a manager is it OK to let say my spouse be listed as the manager and my operations LLC just pay her contract labor as I know we have to log x amount of hours to show the state. Thx!
Bill,
You can be the manager if you’re licensed through the state, but you do not want to be buying yourself a job.
When you’re raising capital to start this project you’ll account for all the time you’ll be in the red before you’re in the green so you have enough reserve to get you through and pay for proper staffing. You should hire the manager up front, it’s a key person in your new business.
Isabelle
Do you have some guidelines as to what specific level experience a manager should have as a minimum requirement . For example x years of experience managing or experience in other roles like a caregiver or How many years in the industry? Or other required experience. Thanks
Tony,
Each state has different requirements for obtaining your managers/administrators license, if you find that your state has very lenient rules, (TX) use a state will more stringent rules (AZ) and do your best to hire those that fit your higher requirements. The more experience they have usually the better they are, but you will find some young professionals who are very eager and want to work very hard to establish themselves. It’s all about how you vibe and relate with them, you need to build a strong relationship and bond with them because they are the face of your company, they do everything, they represent you.
Isabelle
Gene,
I read a similar question above, but didn’t quite get the answer.
1) With the first home, how many hours would the manager be expected to work? In other words, how many hours/week would a manager work for one home?
2) How much approximately would a manager be paid?
3) Can I use a nurse as a manager and he/she and also pass meds?
4) If I don’t have a nurse as a manager, who passes medication?
Tony,
1. The manager doesn’t have a set schedule, the come in and out of the home as needed, they are responsible for the home and emergencies 24-7. When our manager oversaw only one home, they spent most of their day there and was “on-call” all night for any big emergencies. When our manager oversaw three homes, they hoped between homes visiting them all for a couple hours each day, some days were spent mostly at one home and some days were spent at all three, it depends on the need.
2. There are SO MANY ways the manger can be paid. You can break it down as a flat rate per home each month, you can do salary, you can do that they own a percentage of the business, you can do that they get a flat $ amount per bed that is filled, to keep them motivated to continue marketing and giving great tours. It’s really however you want and what makes sense with which tasks you’re asking from them.
3. If they have their administrator’s license through your state, yes a nurse can be your manager/administrator. Caregivers and admins can pass pills, you don’t have to be a nurse. For example in TX getting an admin license has VERY LOW requirements, “must be 18 and have a GED”. VS in Arizona, it’s harder than becoming a nurse, multiple tests, 100s of hours, etc etc. You do not have to be a nurse to be an admin and vice versa, they are different licenses.
4. Caregivers and admins can pass pills, you don’t have to be a nurse.
Do you offer health benefits to your employee’s? .. also, how is the laundry handled like if you have 6 residents is someone washing each persons items separately?
Tuperna,
We do our best to offer health benefits within the guidelines.
The caregivers are responsible for the laundry and cleaning of the home. Usually the night shift person washes all the clothes and cleans the house and helps prep breakfast for the residents. But you can divide the responsibilities and duties however makes sense for you and your home. The clothes are washed together and then folded/ironed and put back into the residents rooms hung/folded and ready to wear.
Isabelle
1. Is your verbal presentation different from the written transcript because I got the impression from the written that the Facility Manager is responsible for the maintenance schedule etc. and in the quiz the 3 responsibilities all seemed to be the F. Managers but Maintenace schedule is owner’s?
2. When a caregiver works 12 hour shifts do they get paid time and a half for the extra 4 hrs?
3. I thought it was the law that the employer has to provide benefits, health insurance, and pay unemployment insurance for employees who worked over 36 or 40 hours. Are there different regulations per State or is that controlled Federally?
Katie,
1. They should be the exact same. The owner would hire the facilities person, but the manager could manage when they are needed to come by etc.
2. No, they’re like a nurse, they’re working only 3-4 12 hour shifts per week. Or you can do 8 hour shifts if you prefer. You can set it up however you like.
3. It is different per state, you can make benefits available that they can add on themselves. We are searching for cheaper options, but it’s proving to be quite difficult. So for now, you can provide options that they can add on if they choose, most will choose not to.
Isabelle
HI again! As I went through the quiz again, I realized that “making sure the beds are filled” is the responsibility that was the correct answer – but, again, that was listed as the Facility Manager’s responsibility, not mine as the owner. I realize that is the goal of both the F. Manager and myself as the owner but I guess the confusion is coming to me with the word “responsibility”. Could you explain. Thank you.
Katie, correct it’s the responsibility of the Manager.
Keep in mind, this is the way WE do things. YOU can do whatever YOU want.
YOU write the job description for your manager, so if YOU want to be in charge of filling beds, or the facilities manager or payroll, YOU can do it. Whatever YOU want to do you can! It’s your business, that’s the fun of it all! You get to create jobs and you get to own and operate a business, so it’s all your choices! Hope that helps open your mind to the possibilities and ideas you can create!
Enjoy,
Isabelle
I figured out the correct answer regarding my first question above but see the word “responsibility” as the stumbling point. All three of those things were technically the responsibility of the Operations Manager for the RAL.
Michael & Eddie,
It really ranges, depending on quite a few factors…
1. What minimum wage is in your area
2. What roles you are asking them to cover: hiring/firing, payroll, grocery shopping, managing 1 home or more, tours of the property, marketing, etc
Then, finding out How you want to pay them:
3. Salary flat fee
4. Hourly flat fee w bonuses and overtime, etc.
5. Flat rate per home (If they’re overseeing multiple homes)
6. % of ownership of company, so overall number off the top of how much was made that month
7. % based on how many beds are full (to motivate them to market and fill beds)
Based on answering those questions you can determine what might work best for you at your home.
In general it’s usually $2-3 more per hour than the caregivers and caregivers are usually paid $1-2 above minimum wage, but again this could vary greatly depending on what you want them to do or how many homes you want them to oversee, etc.
It’s your business so you’re laying the groundwork.
Isabelle
Jennifer,
Just a line item, maybe $100-300 per month depending on how new or old the house is and what the landscape entails and what you’re or someone on your staff is willing to do versus what you plan to hire someone to do.
Example, are you or a staff member willing to change a light bulb? Mow the lawn? Shovel snow? etc.
Or do you want to hire someone?
Totally up to you! We hire people to do everything all landscaping, all maintenance work and they do it at all 6 of our RAL homes as well as at our 2 personal homes. So because we know them and use them for everything he gives us great deals and is very available to us. Check out typical pricing in your area, but finding one person who you trust, know and like is key.
if you have 16 clients as a goal, when do you recommend bringing on the care givers. For example one care giver from 1-5, second care giver 6-12 and third caregiver 12+? not including the manager.
Bregitta,
That’s exactly how you do it. You don’t want to be paying for 3 caregivers if you only have 2 residents, grow them as you grow your residents.
Gene Guarino
Hi Gene – how much do you pay for a manager ? Do you have any thoughts regarding making a manager a partner in the operational LLC? We are talking with a couple that has run a 6 person RAL for 5 years about having them operate our home for a combination of salary and equity ( equity earn out based on performance ) .. we intend to rennovate the building to accomodate 6 people initially and use cash flow to rennovate additional square footage over time. I’m crunching the numbers as best I can on a proforma basis and it looks like only the NOI is only about 10% of the gross revenue after accounting for a business manager and CNAs and other expenses
Rich,
You’re on the right track. You can structure the managers pay multiple ways! In our live training we cover this subject in depth, I hope you can make it out to that training soon! Some of our students to pay their managers a combo of salary and equity, that’s not a bad idea and it keeps them incentivized to keep the house full and running well.
Once you graduate the course, go ahead and sign up for a discovery call with my support team they will help walk you through your pro forma and how we can be of help to you to make those numbers work!
Look forward to your success,
Gene
thanks Gene – that would be very helpful
Look forward to working with you more.
Gene
Gene,
Are there beneficial plus’s or minus’s in using a Temp Agency to test the business manager skill level and sets?
Daniel,
Every manager is going to have a different style and different expectations off the bat for themselves. It’s very important that you are clear with them about what you are expecting out of them and their position. If you are wanting them to just give tours and help schedule the staff that’s one thing, but if they’re also in charge of the medication management, menus, activities, outside vendors (haircuts, chefs, etc), billing, payroll, marketing, hiring/firing, keeping manuals up to date, etc. Then it’s a whole other job. You need to interview really well, that is the key. Find someone you can trust and clearly lay out what you’re expecting of them and what you yourself are responsible for. Make sure they enjoy the job duties you’re assigning and that they have full comprehension on how to do each of them. Over time you will discover what they excel at and what they need some hand holding on, but the more time you can spend training someone perfectly to suit your needs vs. having temps in and out of the house all the time, the better. You want to build a relationship with your manager and you need to really trust them, as they are the face of your business. Most of the families will never know your name or face, but they will know your manager by heart. It’s a special position, so spend good time on the hiring of this spot and the training of it as well. Invest in this person! Long answer for a short question, sorry!
Gene
Gene,
As a follow on to your answer to Bregitta’s question; I assume that the house has to be covered 24 hours per day, if i have 2 residents, how do i cover all the hours with only 2 caregivers? Are the 2 working 12 hour shifts? What would happen on weekends? Please explain.
Robert,
Two Residents is tough, I hope thats just in the interim and that you are looking for more. I will address two issues here.
1. You don’t need two caregivers for just two residents at a time. One caregiver can handle at least five residents and then once you get the 6th resident you’ll want to add another caregiver for each shift.
2. Now for handling the staffing, one way you can handle this would be you’ll need four caregivers on payroll in this situation. If each one takes a 12 hour shift, some work 3 days a week and some work 4 days a week, they break for day shift vs night shift. There are other ways to get around this if your state allows night shift to be asleep. Some states do and some don’t. If they don’t you need to follow the protocol above. If they do, it may be a good option for a live-in caregiver who is in the home 24/7 and takes a break for a couple hours when manager/other staff member comes to relieve them, etc.
Also note, you shouldn’t have to handle staffing as the owner, your manager will be doing all the hiring/firing and staffing/scheduling.
Hope that helps,
Gene
Thanks.
Gene,
Based on previous sections, my understanding is your manager is also the administrator, holding the license for your homes. I am weighing potential benefit of obtaining my administrator license (in CO) and perhaps serve as mgr short term as I get first home up and running. But also thinking this could be beneficial if down the road a mgr leaves unexpectedly as I know a there needs to be a new administrator (license) in place right away. Thoughts?
Kathryn,
Yes our manager is also our administrator, we use those words hand in hand.
If your state doesn’t have a lot of stringent rules on getting your managers license, we highly recommend you do get it. You can hang your license on the wall and pay a caregiver to act as the house manager and pay them 1-2$ more per hour for doing that work, instead of having a full time manager/admin that you would pay a salary.
Gene
How do you handle when staff call in for work? My worry is having staff and caregivers calling out and me having no way to cover them once I have multiple houses and staff. Do you usually have staff that are call-in for this situation? Or having the 4 caregivers for six clients is enough to usually not have that issue?
Also, do you offer full-time positions or try to keep them part-time to avoid offering benefits, health insurance, and etc.?
James,
You will never have to handle any of that, your manager will. If someone calls out, they’re calling your manager to let them know and either your manager will call in another caregiver, they’ll have a list of 5-6 per house they can call OR they’ll cover the shift themselves.
Not your problem really.
Most of your caregivers will work 3 to 4 12-hour shifts per week, you are not offering benefits or health insurance.
Gene
Gene,
How do you ensure caregivers arrive on time and leave when they are supposed to? Automated employee time clocks with remote monitoring?
Thanks, Vincent
Vincent,
Your manager/administrator will take care of that, not you.
They will set the schedule and if someone doesn’t show up, they cover the shift. You will never even know that happens because you are the owner of the business, you don’t deal with any of the day to day.
If someone is late, the caregiver before them wouldn’t leave until the next person arrives.
This is 24/7 care and they understand that and they love the residents, they would never leave them without supervision.
Gene
Gene,
I believe in a past video you mentioned that a manager could handle 2 or 3 homes. This leads me to believe that managing 1 home is not a full-time position. At the same time, you suggested that the manager is paid a salary. Is this correct? And, when a second home is opened, does their salary double or increase 1.5 times?
Thanks,
TJ
Thomas,
They can definitely manage more than one home usually. But that limit will be set by your state. Our manager is paid a salary, but some of our students structure it differently; a flat rate per home, a certain percentage of the business, a certain dollar amount depending on how many beds are full, etc. You can structure it however makes sense for you. We pay one salary for all three homes, so it started smaller with overseeing just one home and as we got two more, their salary increased to the full amount, but they were bought into the plan on managing 3 homes, so they knew it was going to grow and they were highly involved with the process.
Gene
so in the beginning when you can’t afford a manager is it OK to let say my spouse be listed as the manager and my operations LLC just pay her contract labor as I know we have to log x amount of hours to show the state. Thx!
Bill,
You can be the manager if you’re licensed through the state, but you do not want to be buying yourself a job.
When you’re raising capital to start this project you’ll account for all the time you’ll be in the red before you’re in the green so you have enough reserve to get you through and pay for proper staffing. You should hire the manager up front, it’s a key person in your new business.
Isabelle
Do you have some guidelines as to what specific level experience a manager should have as a minimum requirement . For example x years of experience managing or experience in other roles like a caregiver or How many years in the industry? Or other required experience. Thanks
Tony,
Each state has different requirements for obtaining your managers/administrators license, if you find that your state has very lenient rules, (TX) use a state will more stringent rules (AZ) and do your best to hire those that fit your higher requirements. The more experience they have usually the better they are, but you will find some young professionals who are very eager and want to work very hard to establish themselves. It’s all about how you vibe and relate with them, you need to build a strong relationship and bond with them because they are the face of your company, they do everything, they represent you.
Isabelle
Very interesting information shared. I look forward to learning how I will be applying this to my own situation.
Thank you,
Valerie
Awesome!
Hi Everyone,
This is very good questions and very good answers.
Thank you so much!!!
Happy to help!
Gene,
I read a similar question above, but didn’t quite get the answer.
1) With the first home, how many hours would the manager be expected to work? In other words, how many hours/week would a manager work for one home?
2) How much approximately would a manager be paid?
3) Can I use a nurse as a manager and he/she and also pass meds?
4) If I don’t have a nurse as a manager, who passes medication?
Thanks.
Tony,
1. The manager doesn’t have a set schedule, the come in and out of the home as needed, they are responsible for the home and emergencies 24-7. When our manager oversaw only one home, they spent most of their day there and was “on-call” all night for any big emergencies. When our manager oversaw three homes, they hoped between homes visiting them all for a couple hours each day, some days were spent mostly at one home and some days were spent at all three, it depends on the need.
2. There are SO MANY ways the manger can be paid. You can break it down as a flat rate per home each month, you can do salary, you can do that they own a percentage of the business, you can do that they get a flat $ amount per bed that is filled, to keep them motivated to continue marketing and giving great tours. It’s really however you want and what makes sense with which tasks you’re asking from them.
3. If they have their administrator’s license through your state, yes a nurse can be your manager/administrator. Caregivers and admins can pass pills, you don’t have to be a nurse. For example in TX getting an admin license has VERY LOW requirements, “must be 18 and have a GED”. VS in Arizona, it’s harder than becoming a nurse, multiple tests, 100s of hours, etc etc. You do not have to be a nurse to be an admin and vice versa, they are different licenses.
4. Caregivers and admins can pass pills, you don’t have to be a nurse.
Hi Gene..
Do you offer health benefits to your employee’s? .. also, how is the laundry handled like if you have 6 residents is someone washing each persons items separately?
Tuperna,
We do our best to offer health benefits within the guidelines.
The caregivers are responsible for the laundry and cleaning of the home. Usually the night shift person washes all the clothes and cleans the house and helps prep breakfast for the residents. But you can divide the responsibilities and duties however makes sense for you and your home. The clothes are washed together and then folded/ironed and put back into the residents rooms hung/folded and ready to wear.
Isabelle
1. Is your verbal presentation different from the written transcript because I got the impression from the written that the Facility Manager is responsible for the maintenance schedule etc. and in the quiz the 3 responsibilities all seemed to be the F. Managers but Maintenace schedule is owner’s?
2. When a caregiver works 12 hour shifts do they get paid time and a half for the extra 4 hrs?
3. I thought it was the law that the employer has to provide benefits, health insurance, and pay unemployment insurance for employees who worked over 36 or 40 hours. Are there different regulations per State or is that controlled Federally?
Katie,
1. They should be the exact same. The owner would hire the facilities person, but the manager could manage when they are needed to come by etc.
2. No, they’re like a nurse, they’re working only 3-4 12 hour shifts per week. Or you can do 8 hour shifts if you prefer. You can set it up however you like.
3. It is different per state, you can make benefits available that they can add on themselves. We are searching for cheaper options, but it’s proving to be quite difficult. So for now, you can provide options that they can add on if they choose, most will choose not to.
Isabelle
HI again! As I went through the quiz again, I realized that “making sure the beds are filled” is the responsibility that was the correct answer – but, again, that was listed as the Facility Manager’s responsibility, not mine as the owner. I realize that is the goal of both the F. Manager and myself as the owner but I guess the confusion is coming to me with the word “responsibility”. Could you explain. Thank you.
Katie, correct it’s the responsibility of the Manager.
Keep in mind, this is the way WE do things. YOU can do whatever YOU want.
YOU write the job description for your manager, so if YOU want to be in charge of filling beds, or the facilities manager or payroll, YOU can do it. Whatever YOU want to do you can! It’s your business, that’s the fun of it all! You get to create jobs and you get to own and operate a business, so it’s all your choices! Hope that helps open your mind to the possibilities and ideas you can create!
Enjoy,
Isabelle
I figured out the correct answer regarding my first question above but see the word “responsibility” as the stumbling point. All three of those things were technically the responsibility of the Operations Manager for the RAL.
What are Managers typically paid?
Thank you!
Michael & Eddie,
It really ranges, depending on quite a few factors…
1. What minimum wage is in your area
2. What roles you are asking them to cover: hiring/firing, payroll, grocery shopping, managing 1 home or more, tours of the property, marketing, etc
Then, finding out How you want to pay them:
3. Salary flat fee
4. Hourly flat fee w bonuses and overtime, etc.
5. Flat rate per home (If they’re overseeing multiple homes)
6. % of ownership of company, so overall number off the top of how much was made that month
7. % based on how many beds are full (to motivate them to market and fill beds)
Based on answering those questions you can determine what might work best for you at your home.
In general it’s usually $2-3 more per hour than the caregivers and caregivers are usually paid $1-2 above minimum wage, but again this could vary greatly depending on what you want them to do or how many homes you want them to oversee, etc.
It’s your business so you’re laying the groundwork.
Isabelle
How much do you typically allocate in your budget for maintenance and repair?
Jennifer,
Just a line item, maybe $100-300 per month depending on how new or old the house is and what the landscape entails and what you’re or someone on your staff is willing to do versus what you plan to hire someone to do.
Example, are you or a staff member willing to change a light bulb? Mow the lawn? Shovel snow? etc.
Or do you want to hire someone?
Totally up to you! We hire people to do everything all landscaping, all maintenance work and they do it at all 6 of our RAL homes as well as at our 2 personal homes. So because we know them and use them for everything he gives us great deals and is very available to us. Check out typical pricing in your area, but finding one person who you trust, know and like is key.
Isabelle